Entering the fourth decade of diplomatic relations and the 15th anniversary of Strategic Partnership, Kazakhstan and France are at the peak of political, economic, and cultural cooperation.
The interview originally was taken in Russian.
Understanding between the leaders, investment boom, support to Ukraine, non-extradition of Ablyazov, civil spirit and Green Silk Way — below is the translation of an extensive conversation with the Ambassador Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary of France, Messier Didier Canesse.
Strategic Partnership and Support to Reforms
Your Excellency, the first question is about the Kazakhstan-France mutual relations. How would You evaluate the present level of political interaction between our two states? How does Paris view the big-scale reforms and transformations ongoing in our country, as well as the course toward the building of the New Kazakhstan?
For France, Kazakhstan is an important country, a strategic partner. That, first of all, means that we maintain a trustful political dialogue, as was verified in the course of the meeting between our two Presidents in November 2022, in Paris. In regards to Eurasian security, we share one belief, that the said security may only be guaranteed when all countries comply with the fundamental principles of the United Nations, particularly respect for territorial integrity and sovereignty of states. We also share the multi-vector approach, as a method to regulate international relations and resolve global problems.
In the world of continuous change, reforms are a mandatory condition preventing regression. The aims of the New Kazakhstan are inclusive of the strengthening of the domination of law, reduction of social inequality, struggle against corruption, and improvement of the system of governance. Those aims reflect the rather distinct with of the Kazakh society to change. That is an ambitious initiative, that demands demonstration of the long-term political will.
I am, also, convinced that the successful transformation of Kazakhstan is not possible without the active contribution from the civil society. The civil spirit and political and social involvement constitute the driving force of progress, as well as the necessary additional element of political activity.
Investment and Joint Projects
President Macron calls Kazakhstan France’s major economic partner in Central Asia. President Tokayev said that France was a leading investor in Central Asia. In 2022, the turnover of commodities between our countries increased by one-third and achieved USD 4 billion. What, in Your opinion, caused that economic growth?
It really is so – our commodities turnover, which was at its lowest in 2020, benefited significantly from the restoration of the global economy, that followed the cancellation of limitations and constraints, imposed by the Covid-19 pandemic. That turnover is not returning to the level of 2014-2015. While the global growth in oil prices facilitated the shipment of Kazakhstan hydrocarbons to France, the dynamics of our mutual trade also benefited from the increase in the French exports to Kazakhstan – to the merit of aviation and railroad industries, particularly – because of the presence of such companies as, Thales, Airbus and Alstom in Kazakhstan and their successful cooperation with the Kazakh partners.
The same is with French agricultural and nutritional production, both of which enjoy high popularity in Kazakhstan, due to their technical, nutritional, and gastronomic characteristics.
In Kazakhstan, there already are more than 170 leading French companies and joint ventures. What joint projects would You mention, as successful, and in what particular spheres do you see the potential for growth?
Economic relations between Kazakhstan and France are deep and dynamic and longstanding: this year, we are celebrating the 15th anniversary of our strategic partnership in industry, energy, agriculture, transportation, and air-vessel building. Successful operation of such French companies, as Alstom, Orano, Airbus, TotalEnergies, Thales, Saint-Gobain, Lactalis, Vicat, and AirLiquide — and those are just some of the French companies — indicates perspectives of that cooperation.
Visits by President Tokayev to Paris in November 2022 and Minister Olivier Becht to Astana and Almaty in May 2023 became an opportunity to give a new impulse to our economic relations in all scopes and spheres.
In the sphere of energy transition, the Mirny Project developed by TotalEnergies, Samruk-Kazyna, and KazMunayGas, which project envisages the construction of a 1-gigawatt wind power plant in Kazakhstan, is a unique project for the region.
We, also, work to strengthen our agricultural ties. French companies already are well represented in that particular industry, but we want to expand cooperation in livestock healthcare, genetics, agricultural education, agrotechnical design, and field crops. Kazakhstan and France are two advanced agrarian countries, and we can do more and better, contrary to the situation at present, that the Russian aggressive war against Ukraine threatens global food security.
Finally, energy and infrastructure, in which French companies are traditionally successful, have exceptional potential for development in Kazakhstan.
Green Silk Way
Traditionally, energy holds are a big part of our commodities turnover. Kazakhstan is a reliable supplier of oil products and uranium to France and Europe. You have mentioned a wind power plant. Earlier, our government discussed the Green Silk Way. What is Your view on the development of that perspective industry and the opportunities contained in the energy transition?
You righteously emphasized that Kazakhstan was a reliable and major supplier of hydrocarbons and uranium to global markets, especially European ones. We are very attentive to the maintenance and further deepening of those strategic relations between Kazakhstan and the European Union.
In addition to conventional fuel, Kazakhstan possesses numerous advantages to developing new energy sources, which factor constitutes a priority for both our countries, which priority was documented in an inter-governmental agreement signed with the direct participation of President Tokayev by our governments in November 2022, to unite our efforts in struggle with the global warming.
The energy transition is multidimensional and it touches upon all sectors of the economy. That, first of all, pertains to the generation of green electric energy for citizens’ needs, and the TotalEnergies’ Mirny Project is an indicator of that, and it, also, touches upon all other sectors, inclusive of transportation (biofuel for aviation and hydrogen for locomotives), agriculture with the high-precision soil management and industry with new technologies.
I will enumerate several recent examples, illustrating movement in that direction: in the industrial sector, the French government supports ArcelorMittal’s initiative to commission a technology, by which, they will, among other things, produce low-carbon steel with the usage of hydrogen. In the sphere of international cargo forwarding, CMA-CGM is designing decarbonated (hydrogen-based) solutions for international cargo forwarding operations. TotalEnergies are designing major projects regarding the production of green hydrogen and green ammonia both in France and abroad. This year, Alstom commissioned its first hydrogen-driven train in North America. AirLiquide will provide green hydrogen for cars to be used during the 2024 Olympic Games in Paris.
I am discussing these companies, that are global leaders because they are French and they all are present in Kazakhstan. They are readying themselves to react to the energy transition challenges, with support from governments and institutions of statehood. And yes, the future silk ways will be green, because we do not have other choices! For that, all of us – states and private subjects-must seek out technological, logistical, industrial, and financial solutions, that will be adequate to tomorrow’s challenges, as well as create opportunities for new projects and creation of new jobs with added value.
Help Ukraine, As Much, As it Takes
Let us now discuss the topical international agenda, in which the #1 topic is Ukraine. President Macron is more active than other world leaders. After his visit to China, Mass Media commented that Macron’s intention was to transmit to Putin a peace plan for Ukraine through Xi Jinping. At the same time, France supplies to Ukraine the SCALP Long-range rockets, and Le Monde reports that Paris supports Ukraine’s willingness to join the NATO alliance.
In your opinion, at what particular point of the conflict are we now? In other words, when and how may this war end? And, how probable is the eventual use of nuclear weaponry?
As was in 2014, when Russia invaded Crimea, Russia once again violated rules, that guarantee peace among European countries, since the end of WWII. Those rules are based on respect for the sovereignty and territorial integrity of states, the two most important principles documented in the UN Charter. Those rules were adopted for no country to ever again become a victim of armed aggression from neighbors.
24 February 2022, Russia, however, invaded Ukraine with the only purpose – subject it and annex a part of its territory, thus rejecting its own act of recognition of Ukraine’s international borders, as was documented in the 1994 Budapest Memorandum.
France cannot stay neutral, because the good and the evil may not be placed on one table, and because France, as a permanent member of the UN Security Council, assumes special responsibility for the preservation of peace.
France, decisively and invariable, acts on the side of Ukraine, helping Ukraine in the implementation of its right of self-defense from Russian aggression, including supplies of weapons. Together with the NATO allies and European partners, France undertakes to help Ukraine as much, as it takes. That constitutes the essence of the security guarantees for Ukraine, as was documented in the course of the NATO summit in Vilnius.
As to the peace, President Macron made a clear statement, in the course of the Globsec Forum in Bratislava on the 31st of May, 2023:
Peace in Ukraine and our continent may not come through ceasefire, which ceasefire would only fix the order of things, that would be equal to the re-creation of a frozen conflict and which, in some sense, would fix the seizure of territory contrary to the international law (…). There is just one Paix – the one, that respects international law and the one chosen by those attacked, i.e. the people of Ukraine…
In other words, because there are no signs that Russia intends to leave the Ukrainian territories it occupied illegally, we should prepare ourselves for the continuation of the said conflict.
As for the Russian nuclear intimidation strategy, that strategy failed to divide the West and discourage it from helping Ukraine.
How did France percept the armed riot committed by PMC Wagner, taking in consideration that Russian war mercenaries are active in former French colonies in Africa? What did Prigozhin’s riot show? How, according to assessments in Paris, is strong and firm the Putinist regime?
Authoritarian regimes are powerful until they break because of the lack of mechanisms for the resolution of political and social conflicts. Those regimes are only capable to react with repressions to critical opinions, striving towards change, and demanding to observe human rights. That will last until the day when a people’s uprising will put a brutal end to tyranny. As a rule, that day is unpredictable. That is particularly why tyrants fear people and strive to keep them in obedience and political apathy.
Prigozhin’s riot exposed drawbacks and shortcomings in the Russian system, as well as conflicts inside military institutions. The future of PMC Wagner and its mercenaries, many of which are finished criminals, is vague.
Vladimir Putin publicly acknowledged the fact of state funds injected into PMC Wagner. Wagnerovites are an instrument of the Russian policy of destabilization in some Francophone countries of Africa.
In all locations, to which it was deployed, PMC Wagner used mafia and gangster methods. Wagnerovites are guilty of repressions of innocent civilians. As an example, I can draw a UN report, in which PMC Wagner was responsible for the mass murder of 500 peaceful dwellers in the community of Mure (Mali) in March 2022.
How did the Ukrainian crisis change the intensiveness of Your work, as well as the work of the personnel of the Embassy? Did You observe the growing number of appeals from Russian citizens trying to escape the war? Are there among them political refugees, because the authorities of France confirmed that those evading the military draft, as well as deserters from the ranks of the Russian Armed Forces, do have the right to seek political asylum in France? At what level is the issuance of visas for the citizens of Kazakhstan?
The quantity of French visas grows irreversibly since the end of the pandemic. We issued 8 thousand visas in 2002, and 6000 in the first half of 2023, already.
And yes, we are seeing the growing headcount of Russians seeking French visas, since the beginning of the Russian invasion of Ukraine. The same is with the political asylum seekers. We review their applications on an individual basis and depending on each particular situation.
Ablyazov
French authorities deprived the fugitive Kazakh oligarch Mukhtar Ablyazov, who spent an extensive period of time in France, of asylum. Can you assess the chances of his extradition to Kazakhstan, the country where he was announced guilty of the organization of assassination and multi-billion embezzlement? What stops Paris from extraditing Ablyazov, taking into consideration the Kazakhstan-France treaty on mutual legal help in the sphere of criminal offenses?
French democracy rests on the platform of the division of power and jurisdictions. Given that, the judicial system is independent of the political system. The executive branch does not possess the prerogative to interfere with the decisions of the judicial branch. The independence and impartiality of the justices derive from and are guaranteed by the specifics of their status. Justices are not public servants and their verdicts only may be confronted by means of an appeal procedure. Their careers are regulated by the Conseil Supérieur de La Magistrature, The Superior Council of Magistrates. That means that justices are assigned to their posts not by the Minister of Justice of the President of the Republic, but by their colleagues.
The above was reported to inform You, that in the light of the above-mentioned principle of division of jurisdictions, I am not entitled to comment on the juridical situation with Ablyazov.
As for the mutual legal help treaty, the said document is not in effect yet, because the appropriate ratification procedures are still ongoing.
Those Who Live Are Those Who Fight!
Messier Canesse, we cannot, but avoid mentioning the mass disorders in France, that took place several times in the last several months. Yellow Vests, pension reform opponents, pogroms, and robberies after the murder of a juvenile in Nanterre … Why is it so, that any criminal or social incident will trigger a robust confrontation out in the streets with those suffering and multi-million damage?
“Those who live are those who fight!” – said Victor Hugo. Rights and freedoms are always the implications of the fight. France has a tradition of political and social struggle – that tradition is deeply rooted in its history. French are proactive citizens, they are demanding of their government, which factor is the engine of progress. However, that factor may lead to disorder, that may ignite in the course of public gatherings. When they extend in time and acquire radical shape, they constitute a challenge to the authority of statehood. It is important to sustain that authority but under strict adequacy of the force used by law enforcement.
Police enforcement adequacy is a very sensitive issue in France because the public does not tolerate the disproportionate application of force. As an example, we can make reference to the disorders triggered by the death of a young man in the course of a police street check in the Paris suburbia, several weeks ago.
The police officer, responsible for that incident, was taken in custody and will have to face the consequences in court. The sustainability of the authority of the statehood envisions the police’s impeccable behavior and course of action, as well as punishment for illegal action, once committed. That is necessary to maintain the confidence of French citizens in their democratic institutions.
Big Space and Small Tourism
We are resuming the conversation regarding mutual relations. Recent events are inclusive of mutual contacts aimed at the cooperative manufacturing of space vessels. Also, we are seeing the activation of cooperation in the sphere of healthcare. What is known about some particular details of agreements in those spheres?
The space industry is one of the leading types of activities in France. Our country places a decisive role in the space detachment of the European group Airbus Defense and Space. In 2010, the latter entered into a joint venture Galam with the Kazakhstan Garysh Sapary. The joint venture operates the Center of Assembly and Testing of Space Satellites, which Center must become the basis for future satellite projects.
Also, France operates in the Kazakh space sector through Thales, which company, together with its partners, delivered a series of telecommunications satellites KazSat, two of which are presently orbiting in space. Thales is interested in new commercial projects.
In the last two years, our healthcare cooperation showed impressive growth. The best results were achieved in cancer research, medical technological innovation, and the availability of healthcare in rural areas. France is a global leader in the quality of its healthcare, and that particular sphere may bring significant benefits to Kazakhstan.
How would you evaluate our cultural cooperation? How come, that when the French business is well present in Kazakhstan, tourism is not developed sufficiently? Are our countries discussing opportunities of setting up a direct air connection between ourselves?
You are right – there are not many French coming to Kazakhstan for tourism. There are several reasons for that.
First of all, that is the proximity and high cost of air tickers. Upon arrival to Kazakhstan, a person will have to take a long journey to natural sites, which constitute the key factor of tourist attraction in Kazakhstan. The most unique objects, such as the ones in the Mangistau peninsula are only available with tour guides. As a rule, in such places, there are no tourist conveniences. Tourists have to carry food on them and spend the night in tents. That is the particular type of tourism that I like very much, but many people will not necessarily appreciate it.
As for the direct airline between Kazakhstan and France, that is a commercial issue for review by Air France and Air Astana. Significant growth in the number of Kazakh tourists to France, we are observing due to the issuance of visas, as well as the perspectives of the organization of the 2024 Olympic Games in Paris, to my mind, justify the serious consideration of the restoration of the direct air connection that existed prior to the pandemic.
In the Language of Voltaire and Russo
How popular are French universities among Kazakh youth, and how many student visas are given to citizens of Kazakhstan? Earlier, You regretfully said that the French language was not very popular in our country. Why, do You think, it is so? Will that negative tendency be broken, when the two new schools, our Presidents discussed, are opened in Astana and Almaty?
There are some 450 students from Kazakhstan studying in France. That is a small quantity, compared to 300 thousand of international students traveling to France every year. What makes France attractive is that its higher education institutions stand out for a very high level of knowledge in all spheres, while the cost of education in France is rather acceptable. For citizens of France and the European Union, education in state universities is free of charge. For foreign students, it is partially covered by the state and partially – by students themselves. The cost is acceptable: some Euro 3000 a year for a Master’s Degree and Euro 500 a year for Doctor’s Degree! For the French state, knowledge is something that ought to be shared, not a commodity to sell!
To enter a University, an apprentice must have the B2 level of French command. But there are academic itineraries available in English. For details, please check the Campus France website.
There are opportunities to receive scholarships, for example within the framework of the Abay-Verne program or Make our Planet Great Again, and Bolashak, of course. For students, who need language courses, the most optimal option are the courses organized by French Alliances in Astana, Almaty, Shymkent, and Karaganda. A student might work levels up from scratch to B2 by the end of the second year of training.
Unfortunately, Kazakhstan is missing out on one sphere of knowledge – the French language. Despite the fact, that the French language is the second most learned in the world, after English, in Kazakhstan, its teaching is almost absent. Ministry of Education reports that less than 1% of pupils study French – when the French language is the world’s fifth most widespread language – 350 million individuals speak French! It is the official language of 29 countries! Only the political will, shown by Kazakhstan’s leadership will change that situation. That will take time, because, first of all, it will be necessary to set up French language chairs, and train French linguists and teachers.
The project of establishment of two international schools in Astana and Almaty is a part of our strategy regarding the restoration of the place of the French language in Kazakhstan. Those will be schools, in which French will be the principal language of the academic process. The academic program will be the same as in French secondary schools. Pupils, at the same time, will be taught Kazakh, English, and Russian languages. A part of the teachers will be those from the French national educational system.
We also support School #17 in Astana, School #25 in Almaty, and School #95 in Karaganda, where recently bilingual Francophone departments were established. That will allow us to transform those schools into centers of advanced expertise in the sphere of the teaching of the French language. Every year, graduates from those schools enter French universities. French, together with English, pre-determines their bright future.
Olympics Close
We are all savoring the beginning of the Olympic Games in Paris next year. Are you aware that French coaches are helping Kazakh Judo wrestlers prepare themselves for the upcoming Olympics? The three-time Olympic champion Teddy Riner held a master class in Kazakhstan!
The national team of Kazakhstan is trained by Stephane Traineau, a French Judo champion. He was the one, who invited Teddi Riner to Almaty last year. I hope, that Kazakh Judo wrestlers will return from Paris with medals!
The national Karate team is trained by Tarek Abdessalem. The team recently won first place at an Asian team events championship. When they unite efforts, the French and Kazakhs are undefeatable!
I hope, that the Olympics and Paralympics of 2024 in Paris will become a grand festivity, as well as a demonstration of the French expertise in the sphere of sports infrastructure, education, and training of athletes. France strives towards impeccability, especially in the fight against doping, promotion of gender equality, and fight against discrimination.
In continuing the sports discussion … France has a strong horse-breeding tradition, which is why the French can realistically appreciate the mastery of the Kazakh Kokpar riders. Did You happen to watch that game? What are Your impressions?
France is a country with a rich horse sports tradition and legacy. Traditional French horse-riding practice is a part of the UNESCO non-material cultural legacy. It is an impulse to grace and refinement of motion, a harmony between a man and an animal. It is art. Le Cadre Noir, a crew of elite French horse riders from the National Riding School in Saumur, is a bright keeper of the mastery tradition. Riding is the most popular sport in France, after football and tennis. 700 thousand individuals, women, mainly, are members of the French Riding Federation. French is also fond of horse races. Every year, 241 hippodromes in France host 20 thousand competitions. Bets turnover totals Euro 9 billion. Horse riding tradition has an important economic element in France. That industry has tens of thousands of jobs and constitutes an important factor in the development of rural regions.
Yes, of course, I have attended more than one Kokpar competition! Those events, riders, and horses are truly impressive. Those competitions are unique because they create an atmosphere of devotion and warmness among spectators.
Messier Canesse, Your diplomatic career is more than 20 years. Is the word “nostalgia for home and motherland” familiar to you? How does a professional diplomat handle nostalgia?
Being a diplomat means representing your country and promoting its interests. You never lose connection to your home country. Contrary to that, you develop a very close connection to your own country. Embassies are small Frances almost in every country of the world.
Being a diplomat means making a choice in favor of an open attitude to the world, introduction to other cultures, as well as other human, political, and social realities. Given that, there is no room left for nostalgia!